Episode 56 - VAGUS Not VEGAS! How TO Maintain Your Nervous System With Jessica Maguire Part 2 (Full Transcript)

This is a full transcript of the Nirvana Sisters podcast Episode 56 - VAGUS Not VEGAS! How TO Maintain Your Nervous System With Jessica Maguire Part 2..

Editor’s Note: Please know that this podcast transcript is automatically generated and may contain minor errors such as typos and word switches. For more information, be sure to listen to the podcast here or view our podcast episode guide.

Amy: 0:06

Welcome to Nirvana sisters podcast where we take the intimidation out of well being and beauty to help you achieve your highest state your nirvana. We are sisters in law and your hosts. I'm Amy Sherman.

Katie: 0:18

And I'm Katie Chandler. So let's get into some real conversation on sister's family. This week, we continue with Jessica McGuire talking about vagal tone and repairing your nervous system. And this part two episode, we get advice for helping to regulate children's nervous system, especially children with maybe autism, ADHD, and so on, Amy gets real time advice on her vestibular migraines and how it could potentially be tied to the nervous system. Jessica also helps us understand what different dysregulation look like for different people and the various ways that we can regulate our nervous system. We hope you enjoy this super interesting episode with Jessica McGuire. We found it to be so educational and really, really interesting. It's a completely different way of looking at how to manage one's stress. It's a new way that not a lot of people talk about and we think it can be really, really helpful to so many people. So we hope you enjoy.

Amy: 1:28

I have a question about I guess a symptom of not being regulated could be headaches or dizziness, because I have the similar migraines. If you know what that is. And they were really bad a couple years ago, they're much better now. But is that related? Because I have a feeling it probably is like I was off and probably needed to do things to help it. But are you familiar with that?

Jessica: 1:51

Yeah, there's some good research that shows there is some connections there, because of the vagus nerve connects like it's a cranial nerve, which you would link cranial nerves with other cranial nerves winds migraines. So particularly with the vestibular system, so as it comes up around the ears, it's connecting with other cranial nerves there. So they've shown that lower vagal tone can present as things like tinnitus, headaches, migraines, that kind of thing as well. But also there'd be the inflammatory links. So the vagus nerve can influence our level of inflammation. And that's if we'd love able to and we sometimes see these chronic things come up, such as migraines

Katie: 2:38

interests, or anything that you can do that like it, like if someone so for me example, what could she do to help with her vagal tone now that you know, she has a vestibular migraines, maybe the person, the listener is hearing this and they're saying, Oh, I'm I'm on the higher end? What like, what's something that they could do that could help them? I saw that you mentioned play on your Instagram page playing like a kid again, like these, you know, these these little things that we can do at home? Does meditating help? What are any things that our listeners could do? Sure.

Jessica: 3:13

So it would depend as well, I would be worried, like Amy and I were to look further, we would say, Well, what looking at what stage she would spend most of her time it really triggered her nervous system, does she have dysregulation? Or does she she's experiencing a lot of anxiety at that time. So again, I would be looking in that framework of the window of tolerance to see where that you know, where should be resting play is one of the best things because you you are working with your nervous system in the state where you have that sympathetic nervous system coming in, or the fight, the insane energy that leads to fight or flight is that mobilizing energy that is in play, but with play the vagal brake or the vagus nerve is still working. So you feel excited, energized, you feel that mobilization through your body, but it's not moving into a threat, because you've got the vagal brake fit. So play is great. It can be with kids. I mean, if if as an adult you find things with certain friends playful like comedy, it could be just taking funny photos. It could be going and doing something like a hike together and you know, really having that group laugh, banter, but reciprocity where it's back and forward is really what helps because when you say it's the same as speaking and listening, when you talk, your vagal brake releases slightly. When you listen, it comes back on slightly. So whilst we can say okay, let's do these things that are inside the window, where our nervous system learns and things will change is when you actually have some stress in your nervous system. So that's where we want to for some people excitement gets interpreted as anxiety. It's like almost like this, oh my god, this is so great. Oh, my gosh, I'm feeling so many things that I can't like keep it in check. So then it turns into like a racing heart and things. So, so we we do want to use it when, if we were to say that to you the answer to your question before? If so, Amy knew that she moved into anxiety whenever she went to family functions, let's say for instance, well, that's the time where we'd want to be saying, Okay, how can she keep herself just under that edge of her window without moving into anxiety? Now, that could be that she holds her husband's head or that she looks at him and they take like, a moment to be like, together, it could be that if she if she checks in with her shoulders, and a jaw is clenched, and she's holding like this, she goes, Okay, I'm gonna just I've not, I'm starting to notice that this is what I do is an automatic pattern, I'm going to undo that pattern and start to come back down. One of the things that I think is really helpful is using if then statements. So it's like, if I go to the family function, and I start to get anxious, I'm going to go outside for one minute and just, like walk with my feet on the graph, and really pay attention to those adaptations. So whilst there's a lot out there that we can see that says, this is going to help with the vagus nerve. It's, it's not really that powerful, unless we're experiencing stress. And we teach our survival brain, which is the part that detects threat to respond in a new way. Right? It's like, you know, we can all be very chill while we're on a meditation cushion, but then leave and drive out into traffic and completely.

Amy: 7:06

And so it's not trying to keep yourself calm all the time. It's knowing how to keep yourself calm in a stressful situation, and having the tools and strategies to do that, which I think I've learned over time. And I think, you know, that's a really important piece to it. Now, do people take, like, in extreme cases, do people take medication to regulate their vagus nerve? Or is it more just behavioral things.

Jessica: 7:32

So this is interesting, because when you look at what we call the gut, brain axis, that's how the vagus nerve runs from communicates from the gut up to the brain. And a lot of what it's communicating is coming from the gut microbiome, and the what we'd call the enteric nervous system, which is the nerve all the nerves in the belly that they might call the belly brain. And so some recent studies have shown with taking things like say antidepressants that helped to improve the level of serotonin, when the vagus nerve was cut, they stopped working. So it's interesting that we know that things like serotonin, taking those will or taking antidepressants will help in the short term, you know, that will help to improve people's mental health, but long term, it doesn't necessarily improve things. So is that that serotonin, serotonin, helping improve the function of the vagus nerve and what's being communicated? Or can you influence our own serotonin? So I think this is where it's useful to look at the vagus nerve as like this highway that's communicating what's happening between our gut and our brain. And we can also do a lot to change or rebalance, like what the how the microbes are working because they are what produce things like serotonin, GABA, which is an anti anxiety neurotransmitter, as well and dopamine. So we can we can still have a big influence on the balance of our gut and the vagus nerve will communicate that upwards. But in terms of medication specifically for the vagus, not really, it's more that the medication treats the end stage. So like inflammation, pain, you know, people use proton pump inhibitors for the gut, but a lot of that can be poor vagal tone. So unfortunately, a lot of them probably just mask what's going

Amy: 9:35

Yeah. And I think, you know, culture, people will say, you know, you hear it all over the place, like, Oh, I'm stressing to take a Xanax, you know what I mean? And like, that's very common, unfortunately, that is how people are coping with their stress me included sometimes if I need to, right. And I think it's really important to figure out ways to not rely on something like that to kind of get you back into your zone, if you will. Yeah,

Katie: 9:59

and I do I love that the tools that you were saying it feels like it's kind of like mindfulness practices like checking in. There's this book that I read to my children. That is, it's called ion peace. And it's just this little story all about this guy that is he's tuning into himself, like, right now I can hear the wind and the trees are bustling. And I can feel the grass underneath my feet. And I can, and it's like, just kind of checking in, like you were saying, Alright, my shoulders are really tense. Let me drop my shoulders. My I'm, maybe I'm breathing too fast or talking too quickly, let me slow it down. So is it is that kind of a good way to sum it up? It's tuning into yourself in these moments of stress, and recognizing these stress habits, and kind of shifting them. I think that's

Jessica: 10:49

a big part of it. But for some people paying attention to sensation, so we're already close to panic that can make them worse. Really, knowing where you are on that stage. So yeah, we hear a lot of like, just to breath work. If someone does breath work, when they're panicked, they are going to just feel a million times worse. It's a bit like saying, and I wish there was a simple answer to say it's just this, but the part that I keep coming back to when people are like, but isn't there just like one or two things? And it's

Katie: 11:24

really not? Because no, of course, yeah,

Jessica: 11:27

depends on each person. But for some people that will help you know, in the, in the ability to go, Okay, I'm going to focus my attention on this, like that can certainly help. But for other people, it could be things like, I need to move my body, or I need to use ways where I'm out in nature, or I need other people or it's, it's having like this enormous tool toolkit that you can go through and say this is going to work for me today. I mean, there's things with music that some people find regulating, that doesn't involve paying attention at all to anything, it should just be having the music there. And they've shown that we've children with autism, that that has been a really useful way to engage the vagus nerve. And it's having good effects for bringing that nervous system regulation. So mindfulness is good, I guess the part that I just caution people with is if they are really dysregulated, mindfulness has shown that it can potentially make the dysregulation last longer, because you might be paying attention to say, like a racing heart, or butterflies in your tummy. And if you've paid attention to that, it's almost like it's telling the brain there's danger. So this is where we need to know our system. And what works because I've worked with a lot of people who've had a history of like traumatic stress, and they just can't meditate. And they keep getting this message, like just meditate just mentioned, that well, doesn't work for them. So

Amy: 13:04

it's a little bit like, so those type of people need to find another method to help them get regulated, for example, exercise or play or something else. Yeah, I was gonna say, too, because Katie mentioned, kids, and you were talking about autism, etc. I was going to say, I'm sure, this could be the case for many children, especially like teens, because you know, going through middle school or high school is stressful. They're just not able to identify that it could be often. So what do you suggest for like, kids who may have a dysregulated? Tone? Because I would say, there's probably a lot I mean, you hear of so many, like, mental health challenges with kids nowadays. So I'm just curious for our listeners, if they have kids, they think that might have dysregulation and how they could help.

Jessica: 13:54

Sure. Yeah, it's very interesting. And a lot of the research has been with kids. So a lot of this stuff is so relevant, but it's helpful to look up. The babies aren't born with the ability to self regulate. So they actually rely on parents to literally calm their nerves. So the part of the vagus nerve, that's that vagal brake, it's got like a electrical insulation around it, and that is formed, or it's not formed up until we're about three or four years old. So there for kids who are like premature or maybe don't get that really good co regulation, they're more likely to experience anxiety. And there was even a study showing that adverse childhood experiences correlated with chronic illness later in life. So they followed these kids right through. So that was just to reiterate what happens early on in life is like setting up that person for for the rest of their life. So spending time with CO regulation is really important. But that's what I would say is probably the main part is the CO regulation. So using the voice using torch soothing, like that will have a faster effect. And then a lot of we the things we kids, like I mentioned before, the research is really interesting with music. But mid frequency music was shown to that's played has been shown to help kids access that part. But the back and forth of clay will work really beautifully. Even if that's like throwing a ball back and forth, like doing something where there's like, let the excitement build, bring it back down. There's ways to of course get them to tune into, like what's happening in nature, what's happening around that we spoke about as well. And really, like if we just say, okay, you know, the, my child is really up, I'm gonna go out and discharge some of this energy. Or it might be if they're flat, like getting them to like use things like stomping or slowly bringing that energy back up. So you're really looking to down regulate, or up regulate, the kids will always respond best with that CO regulation, because their little systems are forming through it. I mean, even the centers in their brain to do with regulation formed through that back and forth. Communication, new parents.

Amy: 16:39

Yeah, I was gonna say because earlier, we were talking about procrastination, and like, I'm thinking about my older son who's 15, and a bit of a procrastinator, but also has ADHD. So like, sometimes he can be flat or like super lazy, but again, I don't know if he's lazy, or he's just not like regulated. And maybe he needs to, like, get up and do something, which a lot of times we'll say like get up and go outside. And then when it comes back, and he's like totally fine. Yeah, so it's

Jessica: 17:06

an example. Yes. And like getting in with people, I think like because if there's that flatness and procrastination, people tend to withdraw a little bit and not want to go and do anything, it just becomes like a cycle. So it's like for us if we feel that flatness and that sense of, there's almost a little bit of a feeling of helplessness or hopelessness with it. But once we get back out, and it can be just even going to get a coffee or going to a park where there's a lot of people that will help to bring the system back up for sure.

Katie: 17:41

Yeah, I find it interesting. It this was talking about Jackson AMI son, it just reminded me of what you were saying earlier how people pick up on other people's dysregulation as well, like in, in my house if I'm stressed and like, you know, running around and reactive. The next thing I know, like, so are my kids, and then like my husband starts to get that way. And then the whole house gets really you can just like feel the stress levels rise. Yeah, in the house. Yeah. So it's, it's really interesting. So

Amy: 18:12

our next family dinners are gonna be like, Okay, we're gonna regulate, and our kids are gonna be like, what the hell you're talking about

Jessica: 18:20

100 does happen. And I think it's like, we need to not be too hard on ourselves for you know, getting stressed, because it's not stress is not going to ever go away. Like, it's always going to be there. And it

Amy: 18:35

can work for you in some in some ways. I think

Jessica: 18:38

that that sense of getting out of our comfort zone in some ways where we are on that edge of like, Ooh, this is scary. And then we can cope with whatever it is we actually do strengthen our ability to stay regulated under stress. So there's nothing wrong with that. I think it's more, I love that when people understand this framework, they stop blaming themselves. So it's like with your son, if it's procrastination, and underneath that is a sense of like he's you know, feeling particularly with ADHD, then changing the state will change that behavior. And this is why this stuff is so great for cues, but also we can give ourselves just a little bit of grace. Like, Katie, if you said from that year that you had your nervous system learned to be more sensitive to cues of danger. Because it was you know, having a hard time, but some of the time, that means we just then unlearn it through using those practices where we show, okay, I'm scared, but if I can, and if that's what you're saying what works for you where you're like, Okay, I can drop through my body. I can pay attention to what's here, and you just bring yourself down a little bit. Even though you it's still challenging you intact I can teach your system not to be as sensitized. So it's amazing dynamic.

Amy: 20:06

I have a silly example. But I was very proud of myself last week because I had to get a root canal. For the first time, I had like, really bad, it was one of those I had like really bad pain. And so I had to go to the dentist. And then he was like, you have to get a root canal, like, whatever. So go to get the root canal was like on the same day. And as soon as I got it, like, they put something in my mouth, and I felt like I couldn't swallow. And then I started panicking. And I noticed that my shoulders went up. And then I said to myself, Okay, your shoulders are up, like, move them down, breathe, and it like completely helps me and change me. And I was telling my friend, I'm like, Oh, my God, I'm so proud of myself that I like, got through it. Because normally, I'd be so anxious the whole time I like somehow managed to get through because I just noticed that physical symptom of me like raising my shoulders. It's just, that was just an awareness thing. But yeah,

Jessica: 20:55

amazing,

Amy: 20:56

silly example. But we relatable. Right? That's great. Yeah.

Katie: 21:02

This is so incredibly fascinating to me. And I feel like we could, I could personally pick your brain for hours. But really quickly, if you could explain a little bit your program that you do you work with your clients, and how our listener could get in touch with you to work with you.

Jessica: 21:19

Oh, great. Sure. So we have a few different programs, one that we have coming up very soon is our gut brain access program. So it's looking at, specifically the gut, and how that influences anxiety, depression dysregulation, and also how we can rebalance that microbiome to improve the functioning of the vagus nerve. So that is a six week program. It's not really about having to go on a diet and overwhelming ways to change your life. We just have found the through the science, what works and put it into recipes, so people can just integrate it. And it's matched to the States as well. So it's what works for you. That's one program. And then we also have a two hour masterclass that we run, that is a good overall introduction, and just gives you enough to go away get practicing on your own, and learning to really widen that window that we spoke about.

Katie: 22:21

Yeah, I think I'm going to be signing up for the two hour master. It sounds great.

Amy: 22:26

Where can people find you on Instagram? Because I know that, um, you have a lot of really great videos and information that I found to be really helpful.

Jessica: 22:34

Oh, thank you. So our handle is repairing underscore, the underscore nervous, the school system? Don't worry. It's really long. But yeah, there's a lot over there. We do. We do love to share a lot on on Instagram, we found that our audiences very, very excited to keep learning more. So it's been a lot of fun to, to to share this information with people over there as well.

Katie: 23:02

Yeah, your content is great that it is it's so for the listener, it's so incredibly informative. And you give a lot of great tips and educational information that really helps break it all down. I love I love your content.

Jessica: 23:16

Thank you so much, Katie. All right.

Katie: 23:18

So why don't we kick it into our rap session? Amy, do you want to? Sure. tip us off?

Amy: 23:25

Yes. So what is your favorite wellness or beauty hack?

Jessica: 23:32

Ah, I'm gonna go wellness just because I would say that beauty is not my area of expertise. Favorite beauty had a wellness hack would have to be I would definitely say the right people around would be the biggest key to wellness. So leaning into people for support, but also for play and for fun as well. So yeah, I would say that would be the biggest wellness. I love that.

Katie: 24:00

Yeah, surrounding yourself with the right people. Yeah, the energy right everyone's energy when you're picking up on it. Alright, this next one we call it the five minute flow to first of all, do they have Uber in Australia? You do right?

Jessica: 24:15

There's not much in our area like you often go to order them and you'll understand the

Katie: 24:22

question part of the flow. Yeah, so you just got out of the shower and dried off Uber just alerted you there five minutes away. What's your quick beauty routine? What are your go twos your holy grail is to get yourself ready and out the door and in that car,

Jessica: 24:35

five minutes. So I would definitely want to just do some deep cut fill in brows you know, because if you've got polished eyebrows, you kind of feel like you've got your act together and you're really organized. And then probably just looks of you know, like something like a bronzer or an ad coverage. I could just rub on my face but that still gave it a bit of a glow. Nice. Oh, we're just thinking if there's anything else five minutes, I think my time would be up if I had to do any more.

Katie: 25:13

The last one we want to know is how do you maintain your daily Nirvana,

Jessica: 25:18

I really think it's tuning into that those rhythms of the nervous system that I was speaking about before. So just being aware that I tend to want to go, I can do that, I can do that, I can do that. And then it gets to, like, I'm overwhelmed here. So knowing that rather than pushing through, that's the time to actually take a break and get outside, it's probably my main thing. So where we live, it's not far to a river and it's only like, a two minute walk and, um, just go down, have a walk, and then be able to keep working, I think through wisdom, you kind of learn to that your physiology is more powerful than your ability to keep trying to push. And so I listened to that physiology now instead of trying to override it. And that is how I would say much more insight that we know we talked about.

Katie: 26:09

Yeah, that's the key for sure. Yeah, it's so fascinating. It's like being in tune to your body on a level that I have never talked to somebody about before. I mean, it's it really is like You must be so in tune and in touch with with your body. It's I'm I'm hypersensitive, I feel everything in my system all the time. It kind of drives me crazy. But at the same time, you can use it to your advantage. And I just feel like I could learn so much from you. So I'm signing up for their class. Learn more.

Amy: 26:43

This was amazing. And so eye opening. So thank you so much for joining us.

Jessica: 26:47

All right. He's absolutely loved hanging out with you both. Thank you so much for having me. It was really fun. And I love that he was so enthusiastic to learn all about this. So thank you. Yeah,

Amy: 26:58

I think our listeners are really gonna like this. Thanks for listening to Nirvana sisters. For more information on this episode, check out the show notes please subscribe and leave us a review. also find us on Instagram at Nirvana sisters. If you loved what you just listened to or know someone that would please share it and tag us. Tune in next week for a fresh new episode of Nirvana sisters will continue to watch out for all things wellness so you don't have to. Bye.