This is a full transcript of the Nirvana Sisters podcast Episode 141 .

Editor’s Note: Please know that this podcast transcript is automatically generated and may contain minor errors such as typos and word switches. For more information, be sure to listen to the podcast here.

Speaker A: Welcome to Nirvana Sisters podcast where we take the intimidation out of well being and beauty to help you achieve your highest state, your nirvana. We are sisters in law and your hosts. I'm Amy Sherman.

Speaker B: And I'm Katie Chandler. So let's get into some real conversation. Welcome to the show Nirvana Sisters. Today we are sitting down with Sally Joy Wolf. She is a well being, advisor, advocate and keynote speaker who empowers and inspires others to flourish. She loves creating fun and unique corporate workshops, integrating themes such as meaning and purpose, post traumatic growth, authentic and vulnerable, leadership and positivity. Her work integrates her studies at Harvard and Stanford, her certifications in positive psychology, coaching, resilience, meditation and spark type advising, and her lived experience with metastatic breast cancer. Sally is a LinkedIn top voice whose work has been featured in media including Allure, the independent, Glamour, Netflix, health and entrepreneur. And her cancer journey was just recently profiled on Good Morning America and CBS New York. So a lot of media accolades and exposure and for good reason. So we're excited to have you here. Hi, Sally.

Speaker C: Hi. I'm so excited we're finally sitting down.

Speaker B: All right, well, we're going to start with our nirvana of the week and I'm going to kick it to Amy to get us started there.

Speaker C: I would say this week was a.

Speaker A: Very busy week because it's, know, what are we, like 2nd, 3rd week back from the holiday? And so everything has been really kicking in. And so for my other job, I had a very big deliverable that I got done and sent out last night. And so I feel really good about like, okay, done. Next. It was just like one of those things that was wearing on me, so it just felt good to press that button.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: See you later.

Speaker B: That's nice.

Speaker A: What about you, Katie?

Speaker B: Mine's kind of similar. I had on Wednesday, I ended up not having to work in the city, so I had a day at home and I had a laundry list like this long of all the things to do, things for the podcast, things for the house, things for the kids. And it was like one of those wonderfully productive days where everything got done without me being frazzled and stressed over it. I was able to just do like check and that was for sure. By the end of the day I was like, oh, what a great day I had. I feel so productive and accomplished.

Speaker A: I know you're like every day just be so productive.

Speaker B: So I think that was it. What about you, Sally?

Speaker C: So actually, also from Wednesday, I had my first print byline last year, which was really meaningful because I grew up in the magazine industry, and the piece that I wrote was an essay about a dear mentor and boss who unfortunately passed away. And the piece was specifically about this necklace I'm actually wearing that I wear often, that she gifted me, and the lasting legacy that people can leave. So I had held on sharing it publicly until her birthday, which was this Wednesday, and that just gave it a little extra meaning for me and a deeper connection. And then it led to a beautiful catch up with another former colleague yesterday. That happened because she saw the piece. So just that gift of one thing leading to another and feeling very meant to be in that.

Speaker B: I love that. That's fantastic. All right, well, let's kick it off, because I feel like we have some great things to cover, and I'm just excited to pick your brain on all things. I know you work with a lot of people on positivity and being present and being resilient. And so what are some of the key points that you teach people, for example, maybe positive tools for being more resilient?

Speaker C: Sure. And it's such a good point in the year, I think, to have this conversation because people often use the new year. I mean, we can do a reset anytime, but especially after feeling frazzled in the holidays, I think there's a lot of this. How can I be more present in the new year? How can I be more positive or resilient or whatever word people go to? I always start with gratitude, which I know seems like it gets a lot of airtime, but the reality is it gets a lot of airtime. People talk about it a lot because it's actually scientifically proven to work well for us. And I also start there because I find that it's usually accessible for people in a way that some of the deeper stuff that I think we'll talk about in our conversation, like meaning and purpose, can be a little bit more challenging. So starting with gratitude. I've listened to several of your episodes, and I know a lot of people talk about food and nutrients and well being and how we nourish our bodies. So, like kale and quinoa, I know, are kind of like those superfoods. Gratitude is that for our well being from a positive psychology perspective. So going through your day and saying, at the end of the day or in the morning, in the next morning, I'm going to write down three things I feel grateful for, or if three feels too hard to start with one. Right. But being mindful about that, the beauty of it is that you start to notice that gratitude can come in really small pieces. And it doesn't have to be alone, meaning you're not necessarily going to have a day where all you feel is gratitude or grateful. So gratitude can coexist with something that might feel darker. Like you can be sad and grateful at the same time. You can be struggling and also grateful for what is going right. And so I love to start with gratitude because people can usually find that one or two or three things a day. And the last thing I'll say on that is that when you start to prime yourself for it, you notice far more than you expect. So maybe day one or two or three is one thing, two thing, but then by a week and two weeks and you start to have this practice, you're going to have, like, a list of eight, maybe not every day, but a list of ten. Because you're going to be in a moment and be able to just almost know that that's a moment you're going to want to recall later, because it is a moment where you're feeling tapped into something deeper. And so going along with gratitude is also really being present, which you actually mentioned earlier. So many people love to talk about how good they are at multitasking. We are not good at. No one is good at multitasking in the way that I think people think they are. And I have one friend who's an exception. She's a quadruplet. So I kid that my friend Jodi has been multitasking since the womb. But Jodi aside, we think we're okay and, right, you get a notification and takes you down this rabbit hole and you're not really present in something else, or when you're with your kids or for me, I'm an auntie, and we're so excited to be with them. And then we're on a device or we're doing something else. And so what happens is that we're not really experiencing that moment as deeply as we could be, and we're less likely to actually genuinely appreciate and enjoy it. We're also less likely to remember it in a way where it can actually boost our positivity. So really savoring. So gratitude is sort of like that. Can I appreciate this? Can I find something that is elevating to me for my day or whatever it may be, or in that moment? And savoring is really about being super mindful and activating. I like to think of it as activating all your senses. And if you can activate those two things, gratitude and a bit of savoring in every day. You are setting yourself up for a really good day, week, month, year.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's funny. Our nirvana that we were just talking about that we do is sort of kind of in that same vein, like trying to pick out that small thing in the day that brought you joy, brought you a smile that made you grateful.

Speaker C: Right?

Speaker A: So I love that. It's a good point and something we should consistently be remembering because they can be small things. It doesn't have to be some major thing.

Speaker C: Right. And scientifically, it's shown to make a huge, measurable difference, like quantifiable difference in how we would describe our own individual life satisfaction. So we think that things like our life experience dominate. Like, well, how good of a life? How satisfied am I? How happy am I? We think things like falling in love or getting the dream job or having a healthy child, those are all important good life experiences for some people. Or on the more challenging side, having a serious diagnosis or deep grief or whatever it may be, that's life experience, too. We think that will dominate our pie, meaning a pie chart of how content am I? And yes, in those moments, those are a big deal. But science shows that only about 10% of life satisfaction really ties to life experience, and about 40% is tied to mindset and gratitude and savoring, and also going through life with that sense of awe and appreciation. Those three things are all connected like that. Awe, gratitude and savoring. It actually is responsible for about 40% of life satisfaction and happiness. So the reason I start with gratitude and savoring when I'm talking to people about this is because it makes a measurable.

Speaker B: It's really interesting because gratitude, I believe, begets positivity. Right? I mean, that's the idea is that if you're taking a moment to reflect on something that you're thankful for, that's something that is typically positive. It can really shift your mood and your mindset for the day. It can really shift what you are expecting out of your day. Instead of waking up and stressing out about all the things that need to get done, whether or not I have time to get it done. And starting the foot with the negative, stressed, scared mindset, you're saying shift and start with gratitude and the savoring piece, I really can appreciate that. And I think that is, do you find that it's hard for people to do that? Because that requires people to kind of slow down, take it in, stop multitasking, like you said. I mean, there's been times in my life where I was trying to do everything at once. Be the mom, do this, do that, do this, do that, and next thing you know, the day is over and you're pulling your hair out of your head. So to be able to compartmentalize things that you need to do in your life at certain times, live in the moment, how do you advise people to achieve that?

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, first of all, yes, it is hard. And we all are juggling so many different responsibilities and hats or titles or however you think about it. And so I think there needs to be a bit of self compassion and sort of just acceptance that not every day is going to be a day where you are able to focus 100% all the time on the single thing that you're doing. Right. So just starting with the fact that it's hard, and at the same time, there are little micro steps that we can take to set ourselves up for better success. And I'm a big believer. So I don't really do New Year's resolutions anymore. There's so many things written about how by mid January, crazy percentage of people have already dropped the resolution, sometimes by January 2 or third. And I think that often happens because they're so big and so right. Like December 31 happens, and you're doing all these things that maybe you say, oh, this isn't so good, but tomorrow I'm going to stop this. Come on. So I'm a big believer in consistent, small steps leading to big lasting change. And so with respect to the multitasking or the savoring and the full presence, look at our phones. Love to tell us how much were we on the phone last week or the devices? So can I cut that by 10% this week, or can I set limits that help set me up for success? Because I do think the screens are often the biggest source of distraction, and they're created to distract us. Notifications are meant to. There's a reason they're red. Something I did just at the beginning of this year, which I think is working. We'll see. What the data says is I put my phone on more of a grayscale than a color, which I had heard the color is like kid in a candy store. It's just meant to activate things in our brain and make us go back for more and more. And social media is designed for that especially. And so I changed that ever so slightly. It's a lot less exciting. Like, the pictures aren't as vivid, the notifications aren't red. It sounds little and silly, but it's actually not silly. And then I was mindful especially with the first few days of the year when I was in Connecticut at my sister's and with her kids. And I don't get to be with them as much as I might want to. You know, we tell them to get off their iPad sometimes, and then what are we doing? Like, the phone is right there. And so I was very mindful about, no, I'm ice skating right now. Nothing is needing me. Right. No, I am doing this right now. And whatever it is, and I'm going to enjoy this more if I am not checking something else. And the truth is, I realized it at the end of that first day. I realized I felt a difference. I felt less anxious having grabbed my phone less. I felt better about the memories I had made that day, meaning they were clearer, more salient. I could savor them more because I had been more present while I was experiencing them. And so I think that's the best first step in general, is to just try to 10% here, like, say, this next hour or today, I'm going to turn my notifications off at 08:00 p.m. To try that or put my phone down an hour earlier or not grab it first thing in the morning. Like, little achievable things. Sometimes they'll be achievable, sometimes they won't. It depends on the person. It depends how important it is to you. And then asking yourself, did this change? It's really like a little scientific experiment with yourself. So did this little experiment of turning notifications off for an hour, did I feel better or worse after? And if you felt better, the reason we don't then keep doing that is we worry about, will my office need me? Will I miss something important and then kind of say, like, okay, well, what did I not see in that hour that I didn't get notified more often than not, absolutely nothing.

Speaker B: And it doesn't have to be all day where your notifications are turned off. It's like when we're with our family or when we're working, if we can be really tuned in and focused on that moment and not distracted by the outside things, you can get more done and have more of a savoring experience in that brief amount of time because you're present instead of. Sometimes I would be with the kids, not just when I was a stay at home mom, only not working in addition to and distracted by all the things. But I'm with them all day, and I realized I was half there, I'm half with them. And so it's not as enjoyable and it's very stressful because I'm thinking about all of these outside things that I have to get done. So instead it's like quality over quantity.

Speaker C: Yeah. Look, when you're half here and half there, you're not an either, right? It's like this unsteadiness. And I don't know about you, I find myself, like, even just a show that I'm enjoying binging or watching or whatever it may be. Sometimes I'm rewinding, like, I don't even want to admit how many times, because.

Speaker A: I realize your mind starts wondering.

Speaker C: I just, look, just going to reply to this one email while I'm watching this one thing, and I'm like. And then I'm like, the episode ended, so checked out. And that's what often happens. Or, like, I get a notification, I go to do one thing on my computer, I actually get distracted by something else, do other things, and I walk away without having done the one thing I intended to do because I'm not fully present. And so that's the other thing. Even when you learn all of these well being tips, and you both are expert in such a breadth of well being in terms of what you've covered here on the podcast, and yet, I'm sure for you as well as for me, I know it's a decision to break in and to use what we rate. I start off with two questions whenever I am working with clients, and most of my clients are in the corporate space, but it's all well being work, and the questions tend to be a version of how knowledgeable are you about well being? And then how often do you use the knowledge? And there's always a drop, right? Because we can know all the things that are good for us, and then there's a real moment, and we're human and we get distracted. So I think it's a constant choice, like you were saying, katie, to lean into that time with your kids when you're with them or whatever.

Speaker B: And it's not always doable.

Speaker A: It is a practice, and it is something that you have to continually build. It's like building a muscle. Because even, like phones aside, sometimes when I'm in a conversation with someone, my mind is going a million miles an hour, and I can't focus on the person. So I have to just remind myself in my head, okay, just listen to what they're saying, breathe, calm down. And then to try to clear my mind. But it doesn't happen overnight. You just have to keep reminding yourself. And I feel like, keep building that muscle. But you're right, it is a choice that you have to make every day, every conversation. It doesn't just automatically happen.

Speaker C: I love that you just said that. Because that's why I said at the very beginning, start with that self compassion and kindness and that breath. Because none of us are going to be perfect or always having a day where all of this feels accessible to us. We're human. Even any well being expert, if they're being honest, I would say that, yeah.

Speaker A: It'S funny that you said that about the grayscale. I was just listening to a podcast the other day that was talking exactly about that. There was a study, and then when people put their phones on Grayscale, they used it like, I don't remember the number, but much less of the amount because it wasn't as exciting. And it went through this whole history of video games and how they were created, and it all started with slot machines. It was like this incredible history of how these addictive types of screens started and they feed into the addiction. But the point, I guess, that I'm making is that I think the awareness of all of these things make all of these decisions easier. So just like anything else, if you kind of understand the why behind it, or are aware that you're not paying attention, you're going to pay attention more, or aware that, oh, I want to use my phone 10% less today. It's like the choices and the awareness is like that first step, because then you can make it happen more than just sort of going through life without any hundred recognition.

Speaker C: I don't know about this grayscale.

Speaker B: I have to educate myself on the grayscale thing.

Speaker A: You do it through accessibility or something.

Speaker C: Exactly. Look. And so often I think that's true, it probably did begin as an access. It's in the accessibility section of the iPhone. And I think that's because it probably began as something for someone who might have had colorblindness or something else. But it's actually a great hack for everyone to try. If you find yourself on there a lot, because it's just a lot less exciting, I will say I've already had moments. And it's also interesting to see how quickly you adapt to things as a human, which is a strength that all of us has meaning. Like, in this case, adapted to it. And I forgot I had done it, and I was like, wow, these pictures, like, kind of dull. I forgot that. I'm like, suddenly why does the whole world. I'm like, oh, right, I did that. I chose that all right, well, I.

Speaker B: Want to talk a little bit about showing up as your true authentic self in everything that you do. And I can imagine that I know you work with a lot of people in the corporate space, that this is something that you cover a lot there. And personally, as someone, I don't think I ever felt like I was truly stepping into every moment as my authentic self until I was in my forty s. And I don't know why. I know I'm not alone in this. I've heard a lot of people say this, but it's not always easy to do. We're influenced by other people. We have our own insecurities and it can take us into all these different directions, and then that can steamroll and spiral and make people show up in a way that isn't authentic to themselves. So let's talk a little bit about that and how you work with people there.

Speaker C: Sure. Authenticity has gotten a lot of attention recently. I think it was actually the word of the year from one of the dictionaries last year. And it's like all of a sudden everyone everates. So I feel like everyone will be talking about it throughout the year. I've thought a lot about authenticity, really, from the early before I was doing well, being work directly. I was very conscious of having spent about 20 years in the corporate world, high pressured kind of environments, management consulting, a little banking, and then in house at a bunch of media companies. And I remember early on in the corporate know, being pretty young, out of college and getting all this advice about your work self and your other self. And I never really understood it because to me, I was myself and I was Sally and I felt best at work when I was really getting to know people and really connecting. And ultimately I made a lot of friends at work. And there are people decades later I'm still in touch with. And that was true at every job. So I constantly was kind of going back. And I had studied psychology as an undergrad and then before Brene Brown was a household name, when she had this TED talk that many people, it ended up being most popular ever. But I feel like I saw it before most people had. And it was all about vulnerability. And I just remembered thinking like, this is actually where the magic happens. And so it's not that being vulnerable or being authentic or whatever other words come up for people, but really about showing up as your true self or your full self. That doesn't mean that every single detail of your life has to be shared with every single person in whatever the place is right. So I just want to say that explicitly because I think that's where a lot of people struggle or kind of resist this sense of being authentic or vulnerable, that it's some sort of detrimental thing or there are things that they want to keep private. Absolutely. Brene Brown has this beautiful quote that I love about we share our stories with those who have heard the right to hear them. And so you choose, and there are layers of how deep you go, probably with different colleagues or different people, right. You meet at a conference or whatever it may be in the workspace or neighbors or all of that. But what I do with people when I'm working with people, especially when I'm working with a big group at a company, and they're all colleagues and it's a version of professional development, but it's really about, it's all based on positive psychology, which is the science of human flourishing, which means you start with your own self awareness and get to know yourself. And then because you get to know yourself better. What are my triggers? What are my glimmers? Which are the opposite of triggers, like the things that get me really excited, what elevates me during the day, what depletes me, and then also sharing that with others and being able. And you can share that without having to talk about anything going on in the workplace at that moment. I'll ask people to whip out their phones and pick up a photo from their favorites folder, or maybe it's their screen saver folder, their screen saver on their phone, and they'll be in a breakout. Or if it's in person, the person beside them and talking about that photo. And what about it makes it such a favorite for them? Because what they're going to do is tap into their own sense of probably gratitude, inspiration. It's going to be authentic because they're picking something they already love. And then that's a beautiful way to start to connect with people more deeply. Doesn't have to be dark. It doesn't have to be your deepest fear, something that frustrated you about someone else. And the real definition of vulnerability, which a lot of people don't realize is about, it's an uncertainty in emotion and how sort of like something might be received, but it doesn't have to be from something dark. Giving someone a compliment has an element of vulnerability because you don't know how it's going to be received. You're taking a risk. And so that's where I usually start, with authenticity and with vulnerability. And there's this great cartoon that I saw it on Facebook. I have no idea who to credit for this. It is two frames, and it's two black and white stick figures. You don't know what gender, nothing about them, right? Totally discernible. First frame, I'll show you mine if you show me yours. Sounds a little dirty. You don't know where it's going to go. And the second frame, the I'll show you mine if you show me yours. Two black and white stick figures. Second frame, they both reveal these big, huge red hearts. That's it. That's authenticity.

Speaker A: That's vulnerability. Yeah.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: What we all want.

Speaker A: I think, in social media, which is the field that I work in, there's been a lot of discussion over many, many years about authenticity in social media. And I think TikTok has made that more relevant, because for the most part, when that platform started or when it started to become bim, I think big. I think people liked it because the content on there felt more authentic. It felt more relatable. People are talking about, it could be something deep, but it could be something light, but they're not using a filter, or they're just being their true self. So therefore, it's more relatable. Therefore, you're going to keep watching. And so I think you're starting, or will or do see a movement in that space where people are coming on camera and they have a pimple on their face, or they're not perfectly made up. And I think that makes it easier for everybody else because they feel like, okay, I can connect with people on social media or whatever, and I don't have to feel like I have to be perfect.

Speaker C: Yeah. And we connect more. We've trained ourselves to think that being perfect, appearing perfect, looking like I was the biggest victim, feels like the wrong word, but the biggest perpetrator of this, in terms of the story I told myself, I had to go to Harvard because I decided it was the best. I mean, now it's like they need some brand help right now. But when I was growing up, I had heard, I read somewhere Harvard was the number one school. And then I was like, I got to go there. And I wanted to get certain jobs, know, look a certain way. I had, like a million theory dresses. They're all. And blew my hair every day. And all of then, and I had a cancer diagnosis, and suddenly there are real scars and surgical drains and fatigue and all these things. And I will tell you that that was and is, it's an ongoing health situation for me. One of the hardest experiences of my life, probably the hardest and also one of the best in what it has gifted me in terms of genuine human connection, because it's when we let down that facade of perfect and actually let people in. You want to talk about real well being. Well being is, more than anything else, based on real, deep human connection. And that happens from difficult life moments so much more quickly and organically, I think, than it does from when times are good, when they're quote unquote well.

Speaker A: It'S also like, just like when you have friends, right? You tend to gravitate towards the friends that are vulnerable, that are telling you something that's not so perfect, because you're like, that's who I want to talk to. I want to have a deeper conversation. I don't want to have a surface conversation with someone, but if someone tells me a little bit about themselves that's more personal and more authentic, then I'm going to want to say something, too. And then you want to be around that person because they make you feel comfortable.

Speaker C: I strongly agree. I have found that ever since my. So I was first diagnosed a little over eight years ago and went through kind of early stage breast cancer with a double mastectomy and several months of chemo. Was bald, kind of what most people visualize. And then about two years later, it had been detected again. My oncologist felt another lump beside an implant where I wasn't really supposed to have breast tissue. And also a full body PET scan then revealed that it had spread to my hip bone. So for breast cancer, if it could come back sort of as many times, a dozen times here or whatever, I mean, you hope it doesn't. But still considered fully curable, when it spreads outside of the breast region, that's when the vocabulary changes and it's metastatic. It's incurable. It's stage four now. I knock a lot of wood. I have been incredibly fortunate being on all the medicines that I'm on, and I'm also acutely aware of the fact that that could change in any moment. But you kind of go through these difficult life journeys and moments, and they really help crystallize the ability to connect in a deeper way. And so I am very open with my cancer journey, and I'm part of whether it's conversations within an entrepreneurial community that I'm a part of or meeting someone for the first time and just chitchatting when we get to know each other, my health journey comes up. And it's a choice that I make because it's connected to everything. It's to why I pivoted into well being. It's connected to. I mean, if you google me, like I've written for allure, I've written for entrepreneur, but it mentions my cancer journey. So it's not a secret. And I'm proud of how I've navigated it and I share it because I know it will invite deeper connection and it just requires that whole that I'll show you mine if you show me yours. I think where we struggle as a society is people are nervous to go first because they're not sure how this goes back to that definition of vulnerability. How will it be received? Right? I don't know. And so what I have found, I have a gift for where cancer has gifted me. The opportunity is to give someone else the permission slip to share because I am comfortable sharing my story. And when I do that, it invites that back. And so I've met countless people in this, I mentioned this entrepreneurial community I'm a part of. It's called the upside and I absolutely love it. And it's about 250 people and I've met people for the first time, virtually, and they'll tell me something and then they'll say, I've never told that to someone else in this community. And it's not that I have these magical superpowers, right? It's just that because I've shared something, it's not specifically about work, it's just like personal and professional, they're all integrated. And so it impacts me. Some weeks I have a lot of doctors appointments, other weeks I don't. Some weeks I'm wasting a lot of time dealing with our health insurance, right, or whatever it may be. And so I'm very open about my health journey because I can't just check it at the door, but it gives other people a permission slip to be open too, is what I'm curious, your.

Speaker B: Cancer journey, how it has, because I know you were in a different career, you're on different career paths, and was it the cancer diagnosis and your journey that had you pivot into the well being space? And how has it shifted how you look at life, how you see things?

Speaker C: So I was in the media industry for about 20 years and actually had the best job I had ever had at Time Warner. I was running multicultural business strategy across HBO and Warner Brothers and Turner and my boss and I, we created this incubator where we were investing in storytellers in the same way that a VC would invest in a startup company. So it felt meaningful. It was a lot of diverse, innovative new storytellers, and it was sort of the best job I ever had. Best boss I ever had. Like I said, she gave me this necklace I wear every day, and yet I turned 40. And I kind of just thought, I think I'm done. I wasn't feeling it anymore. There's this amazing Steve Jobs commencement speech he gave at Stanford in 2005. And I quote it often. I actually usually quote this part about making meaning out of our stories. But another piece of that talk, he asks. He invites people to really look in the mirror every day when you get up and ask, like, is this what I want to be doing? Am I feeling this fulfillment? And if the answer is no, too many days in a row, that's telling you something. And I think these big birthdays that are divisible by ten, right? We really should be reflecting on our lives all the time. But those birthdays are somehow those points where if we haven't reflected for a while, that's when we do. And so I had turned 40, and I basically said, you know what? I think I'm done with media, but I don't know what I am moving toward. I know what I'm moving away from, but I'm not sure. And I had really loved, well being sort of extracurricularly. I discovered dance classes in my thirty s that I adored. I read a lot of Brene Brown and other thought leaders in the well being space for pleasure, but I didn't really have a specific vision of what will I do with all of that. And then life handed me the curveball of a cancer diagnosis, and that was a difficult time. And it also gifted me medical leave from my job. And in that time off, I signed up for this deep dive course in positive psychology. And it was something I had had my eye on for a long time and just didn't feel like I had the time to dedicate to while I was working full time. So I basically took this course, and I was learning about things like meaning and purpose and post traumatic growth and growth mindset and knowing our strengths and vitality, both mental and emotional and physical. And I was just like, how did I not learn this? Because I was a psychology major and I got two masters and an MBA. Fine. You don't necessarily expect to learn that stuff, but a master's in education, maybe. And I went to Harvard and Stanford, and these were supposed to be the schools that were the best. And I just sort of started to really reflect about that and think we've gotten it wrong. What we believe is the core curriculum that everyone needs to know. The history, the math, the science. Sure, that's important, but I believe the core curriculum for life should be all of those things that I just mentioned and alluded to. And so that along with just wanting more control over my schedule, which being a part of a big company often doesn't bring, I felt like I really wanted to figure out how can I weave all of this together? The well being, the control over my calendar, and the ability to kind of just like what I've done is create a portfolio. So I have this Solopreneur corporate wellbeing business. I had the gift. I had pitched it to HR while I was at NBC Universal during the pandemic. So I actually had this gift of being able to pilot it there and really support hundreds of employees during the pandemic with classes on gratitude. I started with gratitude there because it was like, we're a couple of weeks into the pandemic, and it was like, what can you access now? So gratitude and growth, mindset and meaning and purpose and flow. And I had about a dozen different workshops and coached employees one on one. And then I went out on my own. And I love it because what I mentioned earlier about that Steve Jobs commencement speech, and we can only really meaningfully connect the dots of our lives looking backward or most meaningfully. And my roots were as a camp counselor before I ever set foot in a company, I was a sleepway camp counselor. Camp that I was a camper at, and then I was a counselor, and I was always like, only I could be a counselor at a company. And that's kind of what I get to do now, right? Camp for me was always about community and connection, and that's really what I get to bring into companies and usually through some sort of inspirational keynote at like a town hall or an all hands meeting, and then into a workshop. And it feels really meaningful to me. And then at the same time, I've also started to lean more. And this is another well being tip into advocacy, because when we can see our story, so meaning and purpose are related, but they're different, meaning is more backward looking and reflective. It's that how can I make sense of my story? How can I come to genuinely believe that I'm meant to be living with this metastatic cancer, even though I did everything right and it was screened since my early thirty s, but genuinely kind of see this as a path that I'm meant to be on. And meaning is subjective. So the meaning I make from a cancer journey will be different than another cancer patient. The meaning that two people take from a layoff might be totally different, but the gift of being able to make meaning as a well being tool for all of us is that if we were to make a bell curve of resilience, we have all heard of PTSD. That's like the tough end of the resilience bell curve, right? That's the struggle. Post traumatic growth is the other side, but almost no one has heard of it. And it is best accessed when we can grow through what we go through. And so when we make.

Speaker B: I just want you to define post traumatic growth. Are you saying after someone has experienced a trauma or during the trauma, it is what they have learned and how they have grown and what they are taking away from the experience, as opposed to struggling constantly on the trauma of the experience.

Speaker C: So I would focus on the after. Right. The post piece post traumatic growth, so very much not necessarily in the midst of it. If someone's really struggling with something, then it's harder to access, like, with gratitude. There's a little bit of that muscle element with building resilience in general. So if we can look back at our lives and see other moments, maybe with a smaller struggle, but where we feel like we have grown forward, not just gone forward, but grown forward, we can kind of say, like, yeah, I know that was a hard moment in my life, but I know I have this in me to grow through this, and then the best ways to access it are to really. It has to be authentic to you, but authentic to you is subjective. Right? So what I mean by that is that meaning making, we make meaning. It's a choice. So the way that I make meaning or you make meaning, even if we had a very similar struggle, can and likely will be different in terms of what that story is that we're telling. But when we can access a story that subjectively, authentically resonates for each of us with a struggle that we went through, we are more likely to be resilient after it. But I want to clarify, it doesn't mean that you would choose that struggle. In other words, I can tell you all the ways I've grown from this stage four cancer. Also, if someone could offer me a cure tomorrow and I never had to get another scan or take another pill or injection, like, yes, please sign me up. Right? So it's the ability to look at our story and tell our story in this moment in a way that feels meaningful doesn't mean we would have chosen it, doesn't mean that if it could magically be undone, we might not choose to have it never have happened. But given it did happen, we are moving forward in a way that we feel like we've grown in a way. We're better. We're better than before. We're stronger than before, 100%.

Speaker B: And I can really appreciate you're speaking to the strength that someone gains from the struggle and what they're learning from the struggle and how, whether they would have wanted that moment. Of course, no one wants to have these moments in their life, these great struggles in their life, but to be able to sit and find something positive out of it, to be able to say, this is what I've learned, and this is how I've grown. And to be able to say that to yourself is like a massive accomplishment, right? Like, I am going to take these bits and pieces and I'm better for it and to be proud of it, because when the lows are low, you can't see the other side, right? You can't imagine getting stronger from this. You're just mad. It's hard. It's scary. So to come out on that side, you're a survivor, you're a fighter, and you applaud yourself by finding those meanings and growths.

Speaker C: And then you start to do it a little earlier in the challenge, the next time, kind of, like, recognize this. And so I want to connect it into that purpose. What I was starting to say, purpose is more forward looking. So purpose is that connection of, here's what I'm doing. Here's how I'm connecting it to service in some way that is beyond myself. So whether it is one person, someone's purpose can be deep in caregiving for one other person, right? They have one person they work for, or it could be dozens or it could be hundreds or million, right? If you're Oprah, it's probably, like several hundred million, whatever it is. But that purpose piece about what we are doing, going beyond ourself. So I've leaned into a lot of advocacy that I never would have found if not for this health journey. And that takes me anywhere from the MTA, because traveling around right now, being immunocompromised is so much more complicated than it needs to be. And so if each train just had one masked car, right, rather than, like, I can mask, but someone next to me might be unmasked. Coughing so one car. So I go there monthly. I've not yet been successful, but I'm determined. It's such an easy thing to do. And just last year. Another quick health example. I ended up needing surgery. So I knocked wood earlier, right? I said, I'm doing well on all my medicines. And I am, but medicines have side effects. And one of mine, which was highly unexpected, was that a medicine meant to strengthen my bones, actually ended up damaging my femur, almost like the reverse of what it was supposed to do. Wow. And so I needed surgery to prophylactically get a titanium rod and several screws in my femur, because I was told that if I didn't do that, my femur was highly vulnerable to breaking in two at any moment. Like stepping off a curb.

Speaker A: Oh, my gosh.

Speaker C: Right? I had a PET scan, which we do to make sure there's no cancer. And then I got the good results. But I could tell that the nurse was like, there was a butt, right? You could tell. And that was not what I expected the butt to be, because I had never heard of this. And so, at any rate. So I'm sitting first in cancer land at MSK with a surgeon. But then I went to another hospital. I went to HSS, and I learned know often these doctors do the best they can, but they're very narrowly focused in their lane. And so what it turns out is the problem is that oncologists are using this medicine at much higher levels, because that was what a clinical test was or trial was, but much higher levels than they're using the same medicine for osteoporosis. So, at HSS, they were not at all surprised that I was in this situation, because I had been on the medicine at much higher doses for many more years than they ever let someone be on it. So this is a lot of detail, but the reason I'm sharing it is immediately I kicked into that, okay, this must be in my path for a reason, right? There's that meaning making. Because I am young and healthy, and, yeah, I'm not excited about needing a titanium rod, but I can deal with crutches. I can get around. I can handle physical therapy. I'll be okay. Right? Better me than someone older or less physically able. And here's the purpose piece. The purpose piece is. Okay. Now, HSS Doctor, I need you to coordinate with the oncology community, because shouldn't be happening to anyone. And I need to speak up about this more to make sure it's not happening to anyone, because that's the privilege that I see, and it comes from all these different places, right? Like, being so well educated and articulate and having the cognitive capacity, even while in this complicated medical journey, to be able to connect these dots and say, no, this didn't need to happen and this shouldn't happen. And here's how I can help it not happen to someone else. And so when we can lean into meaning and purpose, they really can help us navigate these unexpected, difficult twists and turns just with a better sense of self efficacy, with a better sense of connection to the world. And I think that's really what deeper well being is, right? It's less about that positivity, like the smiley face positivity, and about that deeper connection.

Speaker B: I think it's so profound and we couldn't agree with you more. And it's so incredibly accessible, which is part of the reason why we do this. It's a matter of sitting down and thinking through things. This is something that anyone can do anywhere at any time. And we could talk to you for hours and hours and hours about it, but we're not going to keep you any longer. We thank you so much for all of your time. But before we let you go, let's get into some silly, fun wellness stuff that we just like to call a wrap session. But these are some fun little questions for you. What is your favorite wellness or beauty hack?

Speaker C: So for me, my favorite wellness hack is a dance party. Meaning a party. It could just be me, with me. But before anything, before we recorded today, before I give a keynote, before, especially if I have any sort of nerves, like if I'm going to be in front of a large group leading a workshop, I put on a song I know I love and I let myself dance my heart out. I love that sometimes I actually will put on Zoom, just like a meeting with my friend so that I'm actually don't feel totally alone. Sometimes I'll do it alone. It could be like if I'm in public, like in a bathroom stall or an elevator or whatever it may be, or if I really have no privacy. Just like almost like listening to a song and moving my hips. But when we are embodied and we really kind of feel aligned in all the ways, it's almost like you feel your own glow. You feel unstoppable. Sia unstoppable is a song I love to use because of what it says. And so that is my favorite go to because. And shift your mood in a matter of seconds.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's a lot of fun.

Speaker A: It's a great one.

Speaker B: All right, this next one, we call it your five minute flow. You just got out of the shower and dried off and Uber has pinged you. They are right around the corner. What are you going to do? What are your holy grails? To get out the door on time.

Speaker C: My God, I'm so quick in general, because my only daily thing is a keel's moisturizer, like SPF. Cover the bases with the sun. Pretty cloudy today, and that's like I stopped using. It's just kind of like one of these pandemic resets. Stopped using a lot of the product that I'd used in my hair, like shampoo, conditioner, and then it's like towel dry. I mean, blow it if I have more time, but otherwise it's okay. Whatever it is, put it up in a clip, and maybe I put on a little bit of on top of the untinted moisturizer, like a little bit of a tinted moisturizer or some powder. But I don't know unless I'm doing something where I really feel like I need makeup, I'm pretty easy and outdoor.

Speaker A: And then how do you maintain your daily nirvana?

Speaker C: So I think a lot about energy. Like for whatever it is, this podcast, invitation, a potential client, seeing a friend, whatever it is, dealing with emails, does something energize me? Sorry. Everything impacts our energy. Does it elevate my energy and a little or a lot, or does it deplete me a little or a lot? And I really try to choose things, meaning experiences, people, places that elevate me and minimize the other, and it impacts everything. I'm a solopreneur, but I will only take clients where I feel like they genuinely get it. They care about well being, and time with them will elevate me because that's such a precious thing. Right?

Speaker B: It kind of reminds me of spoon theory. Are you familiar with spoon theory?

Speaker C: Tell me a little bit.

Speaker B: Was developed by a community of people with chronic illness, and it's spoon theory. The spoons are the energy. And so how many spoons is this event going to take? But I like your take on it. It's the opposite. You'll gain spoons from certain people that you're with or in your way, energy going up and down from the events of your day, from who you see and everything. Well, hopefully this is raising your energy today and we're not taking it from you because you raised ours.

Speaker C: Absolutely. I had a good time.

Speaker A: Yeah. Thank you so much. It was so, just so enlightening to hear about your journey and about your point of view on all of this, because I think it's just a really good reminder and reset for us, for audience that this stuff is really what's important at the end of the day, and it's accessible.

Speaker C: And I think that's the it always frustrates me that we don't learn this in school more.

Speaker A: No, this is what kids should be learning. We talk about that all the time, like this kind of stuff, and it's accessible.

Speaker C: And I post a lot of well being content on LinkedIn. So great kind of conversation that you enjoyed. We can connect there because it is accessible. So for sure, LinkedIn is where I probably am the most active from a social media perspective. I also am on Instagram, Sally shoots, and then my website is my name.

Speaker B: All right, well, thanks, Sally. Thanks for being with us today.

Speaker A: Awesome. Thank you so much. Thanks for listening to Nirvana Sisters. For more information on this episode, check out the show notes. Please subscribe and leave us a review. Also find us on Instagram at Nirvana Sisters. If you loved what you just listened to or know someone that would, please share it and tag us. Tune in next week for a fresh new episode of Nirvana Sisters. We'll continue to watch out for all things wellness so you don't have to. Bye.