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SPEAKER_02:

Welcome to Nirvana Sisters podcast, where we take the intimidation out of well-being and beauty to help you achieve your highest state, your nirvana. We are sisters-in-law and your hosts.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm Amy Sherman. And I'm Katie Chandler. So let's get into some real conversation. Welcome back to part two with Karen Martell. Listen as she breaks down bioidentical hormone replacement therapy, the various types and much more. Here we go, part two with Karen.

SPEAKER_00:

First of all, educate yourself because there's so much misinformation. If you go to your doctor, as we were saying, they're not gonna be much help. A lot of them are still going by old research that has now been completely changed, but yet the doctors aren't talking about it. So that's the WHI study, Women's Health Initiative. They once thought that estrogen was causing breast cancer rates to go up. And so they told all the women, get off estrogen, it's killing you, basically sent it out to the world. And that's how we saw this massive drop in women using hormone replacement therapy. I still hear people say that. All day long, every day. It amazes me. I can't even believe how many, I would say like maybe 70% of the world still has old belief systems about HRT, because it's just, I always think, oh, I'm doing a great job really getting the word out there, but then every day we'll run across some woman that's like, oh my God, I'm having a heart flash, I'm just dying here, my menopause, and I'll be like, well, have you started HRT yet? Oh no, I don't wanna do that, I was told that that could give me cancer, and it's like, I still have so much more to do here in this world. But educate yourself so that you feel comfortable taking it. Because what the study actually showed, and this now has been published several times, is that women that were in the arm of the study that took the horse's estrogen, because that's what they were using back then, and a fake progesterone called progestin, which is in a lot of birth control pills, just FYI, that arm of the study did have an increase in breast cancer. An extra one person out of every 1,000. Low, but it was there. There was an arm of the study where the women had had a hysterectomy. They would put them only on the horse's estrogen without the progestin. That arm of the study had a decrease by 24% in developing breast cancer. So it actually horses estrogen, which is, we don't even use that anymore, actually lowered a woman's risk of getting breast cancer. So really let that sink in because everybody thinks estrogen HRT is going to give them breast cancer. Now the thing is there is some truth to breast cancer being tied in with estrogen because we can have estrogen receptors on the estrogen positive breast cancer. And so estrogen being proliferative, making things grow, it can obviously then make it grow. Same with progesterone. We can have progesterone receptor positive breast cancer. So if you have that, no, you shouldn't take HRT. You're not a good candidate for it. But just generally speaking, women had a lowered risk by 24%. They also had a 45% lowered death rate if they did end up getting breast cancer. So that means that the women that were taking the horse's estrogen, if they did end up getting breast cancer and they was on that estrogen, they had a 45% decrease from mortality from that breast cancer. that tells us that that really helps. And same with, there's a lot of studies that show that when there's progesterone involved and progesterone is that antipod, it stops that growth. It's very breast protective. So as long as we're using these two hormones together, even testosterone is very breast protective. So it's using them all together because they work. There's a reason for that. Our body doesn't do anything by mistake. We have all of these things put in together. They work synergistically together. So educating yourself so you feel comfortable making that decision, I think is really important because some women are really frightened. A lot of women will say, well, this is natural. We're supposed to go through menopause. I say, well, it's not natural for us to be living this long. We typically died between the ages of 45 and 50. And now we're living longer than we've ever lived before. And we want to live a healthy, vibrant life. And no matter what, we're going to age. So I always say to women, OK, so when you're 60 and now you've got type 2 diabetes or you've got osteoporosis or you've got the onset of dementia, Are you going to refuse all medications to help you with these things? Because this is natural. That's a natural part of it. It's because you're aging that you have developed these diseases. Let's say it is from the drop of those hormones, which I know there's many factors that go into each of those things, but let's just say it's from the hormones have a massive impact on it. Like women will get osteoporosis 99% of the time if they don't replace estrogen. So we can just safely say that hormones have massive impact on these diseases. Are you going to refuse to get help then because this is a natural part of aging? No, of course not. So what's the alternative? Bioidentical, which means body identical, the same makeup as your own hormones, you can now get and you can take to ward off and help ward off all of the major killers of women. With heart disease, diabetes, Alzheimer's, and dementia, and even cancer, women that replaced their hormones had a 33% reduction in all-cause mortality. 31% reduction in all cancers. So we know that women are actually better off health-wise to replace their hormones than not replace their hormones. And so when to do this, this is always the big question because a lot of doctors will say, we're not giving you estrogen until you're in menopause. when people like herself and myself, I started using it at 42 as well because I was suffering and I didn't want to suffer anymore. And so putting them in earlier can be very helpful. Now there are things that you can do when you're in your late 30s or mid 30s, early 40s to help support the hormonal system and kind of squeeze out that last bit of hormones out of the ovaries. Things like Vitex is great for progesterone production, things like black cohosh, sage, Quay, Shatavari. These are all herbals that really nourish the ovarian system. I used those products for years to help me with my hot flashes and my transitioning over into perimenopause and menopause to help with my symptoms. It was great. They worked amazing. but then there got to be a point in time where it's like the ovaries just shut down. There's no amount of supplementation. There's no clean diet. There's no exercise program. There's nothing that you can do to bring back ovarian function. It's going to happen to each and every one of you where those ovaries are going to go, bye-bye, we're not here anymore, and you can't revive them, and none of this stuff will help you to produce a bunch more hormones again. There's things like you can support the adrenal system, and you'll hear a lot of functional practitioners say that, like, oh, just support the adrenals, and then your adrenals will make those hormones for you. I'm sorry, but I've done about a thousand different adrenal tests now on women and menopause and perimenopause, and I'll tell you right now, they could have perfectly normal cortisol levels and adrenal systems and have zero estrogen, zero progesterone, and zero testosterone. it, I never ever seen it produce enough to get the health benefits of those hormones. So yes, we want to do all of these things you want, you have to eat a clean diet, you've got to prioritize protein, we have to exercise, you gotta lift weights, doing some intermittent fasting, all of these things should be part of your holistic perimenopause and menopause care because you will go through menopause much easier if you have those things in place. But know that you can have all of those things in place and still suffer just as much as the woman who's eating McDonald's every day. So it doesn't distinguish between the two. It can help for sure, but there's still many women like myself. I was like super, super healthy. I hadn't drank in for 10 years, eating a paleo-based diet for 10 years, no like addictions to sugar, nothing. I exercise, I was doing everything right. I suffered, I almost gained 20 pounds when I hit perimenopause. I was depressed, my skin went horrible, like everything. I reversed it all. but it was not fun. And I see women like this all the time. And they beat themselves up because it's like, they just keep thinking, Oh, I've got to fast for, I got to do this body hack more. I get old, just start doing cold plunging. I'm going to go carnivore. I'm going to go keto. I'm going to take these supplements. I'm going to take these peptides. And it's like, sorry, but only hormones can do what hormones do.

SPEAKER_01:

I have to tell you that you just explained to me in a nutshell because that was exactly who I was for the last 10 years. I tried every single thing I could get my hands on, right, Amy? I mean, it's part of the reason why we started this podcast because we were just like the junkies of taking in all of the wellness and all the hacks and all the things. We're like, oh, we're getting weight, let's do keto. Yeah, let's try every little thing. Yeah. One meal a day. Yeah. Let's try every supplement. Yeah. And then, you know, started hormones and it's like, oh, tada.

SPEAKER_02:

Can you explain, just to break down, because I didn't understand this when I first started looking into hormones, like the difference between the bioidentical and the synthetic and just positive or like pros and cons of each and all of that.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, what's interesting is even though we use the horses, so it was pregnant horses urine. It actually started with pregnant women's urine, but that was too unstable and it wasn't cost effective. So then they switched over to horses, which is nothing like our own. but it quickly became the most prescribed medication in North America. So you can imagine how many people were on it. And there was a lot of, there's a lot more studies on that type of HRT than there is bioidentical. And even that shows that women are better off to take estrogen from a horse than no estrogen at all.

SPEAKER_02:

But that's still prescribed just to be clear, right? That's like when they prescribe synthetic. Not very often.

SPEAKER_00:

I wouldn't even call it synthetic. I would call it that. It is a form of hormonal replacement therapy. It's derived from a horse. And the progestin, that is a synthetic, chemically made. And that's what's in birth control pills, as I said before. So a lot of people will assume that what's in birth control pills are hormones. They're not. And even doctors will say that, like, oh, the hormone's in there, blah, blah, blah. They're not hormones. These are chemicals and they're actually classified as endocrine disruptors, which means hormone disruptors. So they disrupt your own hormonal system. and they will do things like shrink parts of your brain. Every woman that's on birth control pills will have leaky gut from it, so that's an unstable gut microbiome where the junctions can start breaking free. I think everybody knows what leaky gut is nowadays. It will shut down your own production or lower your own production of hormones, very much so the testosterone. Testosterone really plummets with women that take birth control pills. So these are, that's the synthetic version of these hormones. And so some, there are some practitioners that will prescribe progestin and they'll prescribe a birth control pill that has you know, the same estrogen that's in birth control pills, which is a chemically made estrogen, in order to help women in menopause, or at least they think they're helping them, to get rid of symptoms. So they'll give them a birth control pill with these synthetic endocrine disruptors instead of bioidentical. So bioidentical hormones are made from soy and yams. They extract a chemical out of them that is bio-identical. So it's still made in a lab, but it's coming from Mother Nature. And they can get the exact chemical structure of your hormones from these plants. So your body does not know the difference between your progesterone or the progesterone that you're rubbing on your skin, for instance, or taking orally. So we've got HRT, which came from Premarin, and that was combined with fake progestin. Or we can do bioidentical, which comes from plants and acts the same makeup as your body. And then we've got birth control pills, which are chemicals that can disrupt your own hormonal system.

SPEAKER_01:

I have a question. I use the estradiol patch that is prescribed to me. Is that primarine?

SPEAKER_00:

No, that's 17-beta-estradiol. So anything that's got 17-beta-estradiol in it is bioidentical estradiol.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. Yeah. So I use that and I get it through my OB-GYN and then I get a topical progesterone from an integrative doctor because it can be hard to get your hands on. And do you find that even if you do have an OB-GYN that will give you the patch, they can't give you bioidentical progesterone necessarily, right? Like it's not a prescription like the patches.

SPEAKER_00:

There is, but only in oral form. There is no progesterone cream that a pharmaceutical company is making. You can't patent that, so they don't make it.

SPEAKER_01:

And is there one reason why one would do the progesterone oral versus the cream? I love the cream. I love it.

SPEAKER_02:

I do a progesterone pill, but I do an estrogen and testosterone cream, but that's just what they gave me. That's what I was saying. It's hard to know, do you do pill, do you do cream?

SPEAKER_00:

Typically, what's given is a bioidentical progesterone pill called Prometrium. So it's brand name, pharmaceutical company makes it, and so it's patented, right? So that's why they do it in oral form. Now, orally is not how your body naturally would produce it, like how we process it in our own body. That's not the case. When we take it orally, we have to take it in a much higher dose than we would transdermally because it has to go through the first hepatic pass of the liver and through your digestive system. So by the time it gets to progesterone to your body, we're only left with about 20%. So typically it's given in 100 to 200 milligram dose, and you're gonna get that 20 to 40 milligrams out of that oral. the rest is going to be turned into progesterone metabolites. And so it can almost be thought of as two separate drugs because the progesterone metabolites can be absolutely incredible for women because it's the metabolites that really act on the GABA receptors in their brain, and that's for calming. And so women will use oral progesterone to help with sleep and anxiety, and they love, love, love, love, love it. And a lot of doctors will say topical progesterone doesn't work, which is completely untrue. One, because they're going to say that because no pharmaceutical company can make a progesterone cream. Number two, it doesn't show up in blood work. It's really funny how the hormones work. Testosterone in blood work overshows. Estrogen shows pretty accurately. Oral progesterone will show up in blood work, but topical will not unless it's in really high doses. If you were to take that same person though and test through saliva, which is a great way to test, and it actually is only going to test free levels of hormones, your progesterone overshows on saliva. And so we get this like, well, what should we do? Even if you did like just a blood spot test, progesterone has a better chance of showing up on that. And we know because there's been thousands and tens of thousands of women who have used progesterone cream very successfully for decades. And we're not all running around with breast cancer and uterine cancer. So we know that it works. I've always, always taken progesterone cream because I prefer it. The oral progesterone, unfortunately, a lot of women react negatively to those metabolites, to the high amounts of those metabolites. So they can get super tired from it because it's too depressive. Some women can get angry from it, super, super depressed and weepy. I've had this happen to me several times myself where I've taken too much oral and ended up in a really bad state where I couldn't stop crying. And I have a lot of my clients, more and more so are saying that they get the same reaction from oral progesterone where they're like, I can't take it. And my doctor told me just to keep taking it and that I was going to get used to it or take a higher dose. and I'm ready to go jump off a cliff. Like this woman told me the other day, she literally almost committed suicide from it. Oh my gosh. Because that's how depressed she got. And it's like, okay, well, this is the progesterone cream. It does convert down to metabolites, but nowhere near as much as that oral does. Interesting. Maybe I should try the cream. Most women that have that sensitivity to oral, they can do fine with progesterone cream or suppository progesterone for some.

SPEAKER_01:

Did I did I hear you talk about this on your podcast once about that relationship to PMDD? Is that what?

SPEAKER_00:

Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. Okay. That that will and we'll link to that episode in this in our show notes for anyone that that, you know, raises your antennas hearing all of this. But yeah, we should. Yeah, it's really interesting.

SPEAKER_00:

It is super interesting. There's a woman, Terry Eisenhower, who wrote this paper about it and did the research about it. There hasn't been much more past that. You can find her on the PMDD websites and stuff like that. Neurosteroid sensitivity is what she calls it. Some women's PMDDs can be caused by progesterone, their own progesterone from this happening. So those women, if they start to take oral progesterone, oh my gosh, it's a mess. Even topical, they can have a really, really hard time with it. And it's not that they have too much or too little, it's a sensitivity in the brain to that progesterone and those metabolites. It can also be called GABA sensitivity, GABA receptor sensitivity.

SPEAKER_02:

I have a question on the estrogen and testosterone. Are those for bioidentical only in cream form or do those come in oral too?

SPEAKER_00:

So estrogen can come in or there is bio-identical estrogen, but with estrogen, as soon as you take it orally, because of it going through that first hepatic pass of the liver, majority of it is gonna be converted to a different estrogen called estrone. Estrone is more inflammatory and more weight producing. So it's gonna cause you to gain weight and inflammation and has more risk for breast cancer. because of that. Because the estrone we make in our fat tissues, estradiol can convert to estrone. We need some estrone. It's really good for bones. It's very, very proliferative, the most out of all three of them. So we don't want to take it orally because of that. As well, when you take estrogen orally, it raises sex hormone binding globulin, that very important protein that we don't want too much of because then we can't use our hormones. As well, it raises your risk of heart attack and stroke. And we saw in the WHI that women that were on oral estrogen past 10 years post-menopause at an increased risk of heart attack and stroke. We do not see that with transdermal estrogen. So, if you're taking estrogen through the skin, there is no increased risk of heart attack and stroke, but yet there's still so many doctors prescribing bioidentical estrogen.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, that's I think what my OBGYN wanted to give me like a year or so ago. And I was like, I don't want to take this pill. Like she didn't even tell me anything about it. I would just take this. And I was like, no, I'm not taking that. I want to take like just because I knew that there were these creams and yada yada. So and then testosterone, same thing.

SPEAKER_00:

Testosterone, when you take it orally, will raise SHBG. And it's not, once again, not a great way to take it. We don't want to take it orally and because we have the option not to, then please don't. Same with the estrogen. Always lean on the side of caution. We want to take these hormones as naturally as we can to mimic what our own bodies do. So testosterone is best through injection or through cream. Estrogen is going to be best through patch, gel, cream, suppository. And you can take estrogen through injection. And some women we have had to do it. It's not our preferred way, but some women, their skin has a very hard time absorbing things. And so we do injectable and they love it. It works great. It's just, you have to take another shot, which is why we don't go there first. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I think that right there was really helpful because I know when I first started researching it, and I feel like we're all still learning, that whole piece of like pill versus cream, like it's very confusing. And thank you for breaking that down. I think that was really, I mean, this whole thing has been helpful, but that was really helpful because I think- Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And everybody's different. Right. And that's also really important to hear is you'll find practitioners that will be, they've learned one way, like pellets, you know? This is what we do. We do pellets. We're going to give you this pellet in your butt that's going to be in there for three months, and it's going to release testosterone and estrogen. We'll give you a progesterone pill, and this is what we do. run away from people like that. You want somebody that's going to work with you and see what's going to work best for you and your body. Because like I said, some people's skin doesn't take in patches. I've had women feel like their patch just literally falls off their skin and they're like, this isn't working. Well, I got to do injectable. Some women can't do the oral progesterone, so they got to do transdermal or they got to do suppository. It varies widely. I mean, I prefer the patch with gel to top it up or a cream to top it up because I go through my estrogen really fast with my fast metabolizer of drugs. So if I put on estradiol cream, it's literally gone within a few hours. So I use a patch, a lowered patch to keep a steady dose, and then I top up with my estradiol cream that I have.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, that's interesting. Okay, so we could talk to you for hours and hours and hours. And our listeners can, this is so incredibly knowledgeable, but I know we need to have a part two.

SPEAKER_02:

So many more questions, I feel like.

SPEAKER_01:

Also, I really want our listeners to go to your podcast because you have so many episodes that cover this and so much more in this vein. And it's really incredible how much of a deep dive you do on everything. So you guys absolutely have to check out Karen's podcast, The Hormone Solution. But here's the other great thing. Our listeners can come to you and work with you, yes, to figure out how they can get on, you know, BHRT, what's best for them, etc. So please tell our listeners where they can find you and also what kind of programs you offer.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we're one of the few, I think, telemedicine companies that we really take a very holistic approach to this. You know, we've talked lots about hormone replacement therapy in today's discussion, but There's the importance of having all those lifestyle pieces. I really don't want people to think like those aren't important. To feel your best in the second half of your life, you want something that's really comprehensive. You want to be paying attention to all of those areas of stress management, diet, exercise, and the hormone replacement therapy. It all goes together. just so that you can feel great. I mean, I've never felt this good in my life. I don't know if I've even looked this. I feel like I look great. I feel great. I'm going to be 48 in a month. And it's just like, yeah, bring on 50. I'm stoked. Let's just see how good I can look at 50 now.

SPEAKER_02:

amazing.

SPEAKER_00:

So yes, very, we do a very holistic approach, we can prescribe in every state. So we in throughout all of the states in the United States, as well as British Columbia and Alberta in Canada, we're working on getting more provinces. It's all telemedicine. And then we've so we've got private coaching. And then we've got group coaching as well, where I really wanted to be able to give women all women an option to get help. I created a group coaching program six years ago, and it's been amazing. We've got a few hundred women in there. It's really, really affordable. Anybody can, I think, afford it nowadays. It's always a good deal so that you can get the help that you need. We do weekly group coaching calls. We do lab reads. We have meal plans. And we walk you through what's going to happen in these perimenopause and menopausal years and what you can do to help mitigate these symptoms and live essentially a great life symptom-free. And then we've got programs where you know, it's a monthly program, you get private coaching calls, you get blood work done, you get hormones, you get, it's kind of all wrapped up into a monthly fee. So we've got that as well. So you've got, you can do a one-off, a session with our nurse practitioner and get started, get going on the prescribed HRT, or you can do a group coaching call, or you can do our VIP where it kind of includes everything from month to month. And then I just came up with my own line of over-the-counter hormone creams, which is fabulous because yeah, and so really super affordable compared to what you would get in a pharmacy. They're super clean, which also you will not get in a pharmacy. So there's no parabens, no chemicals in them, super clean. It's like coconut oil, shea butter, I've got a low-dose estradiol. I've got the only over-the-counter estradiol cream that's available to the public right now, which is pretty exciting. It's low-dose because I feel like once you do get into the higher doses of estradiol, you do want to work with a practitioner. This is just a 0.25 milligrams. It's a starting dose. It would be great for somebody that's in perimenopause that's maybe still cycling, but it's getting a irregular, they're in their mid-40s, they're having symptoms of low estrogen. So you could start with that. And then I also have a combination cream that's higher dosed, it's more concentrated and it's got estradiol as well as estriol in it. And I really focused that one on for the face and skin because it helps build, the research shows that it will help to build collagen in the face, reduce wrinkle depth and shrink pore size by anywhere between 40, sorry, 60 to 100% after months of use. So I've created it. People love it. It's definitely my top seller is the face cream. But you can use the face cream if you're in menopause. You can use it systemically as well. It's a higher dose, so I don't want somebody in perimenopause to use it, but you can use it.

SPEAKER_02:

And is that on your website or how would people?

SPEAKER_00:

It's on my website. Yeah. And then I have a progesterone cream that's a 50 milligram progesterone cream. And you use that as a cycling woman, you would use that days 14 to 28. And one bottle will last you for three months if you use it that way. which is really amazing. It's like $50, which it's usually about $50 to $60 a month for progesterone. Yeah, that's fantastic. That's great. I've never heard of it being over the counter.

SPEAKER_02:

So that's really helpful for someone who's kind of like just starting and great.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. And someone that can't afford like a hormone, like I won't lie, it's expensive to see us privately as it is any hormone clinic. Like you're looking anywhere between $400 to $800 for your initial call. with any of the hormone clinics that are throughout the United States. I have yet to find somebody that's much cheaper than that. And so once again, we just want to make this available to the public. So we created these creams to not only have a clean product, but also something that people can just go online and buy. And if you go into my site and in my shop, each of the creams, you'll see that you can download my user guide. It's like a user guide to bioidentical hormones. I break all of this down for you and what symptoms you're looking out for to say that maybe it is time to start progesterone or maybe it's time to start estrogen. I break it all down in this little ebook that I made. That's just free. You just go on there and download it.

SPEAKER_01:

That's fantastic. We'll link out to that in our show notes. All right. Well, before we get into our wrap session, I just want to say thank you so much because you're actively changing women's lives daily and congratulations on all your success. We're really grateful to have you here. So thank you.

SPEAKER_00:

Thanks, ladies. It's been a pleasure.

SPEAKER_01:

All right. So here's our wrap session. Just a few quick fun questions. What is your favorite wellness or beauty hack? Besides, of course, you're like, you know, fabulous estrogen cream and everything that you just gave us.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, can't that be my beauty? Hormone replacement therapy, even internally, is like the best beauty care. But you just want something quick.

SPEAKER_01:

Whatever. No, it can be your HRT. Absolutely. I was teasing.

SPEAKER_00:

I really do feel like that has kept my skin the best.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, your skin is beautiful. Taking it internally as well, like systemically as well as topically.

SPEAKER_01:

Nice. Okay, great. All right. And then the next one, we call it our five-minute flow. You just got out of the shower and dried off and Uber has paid. There's Uber in Canada. I was just in Canada and I took an Uber.

SPEAKER_00:

You have an Uber there, yes. Uber just alerted you.

SPEAKER_01:

There is Uber, yeah. Okay. Uber's five minutes away. What are your go-tos? What are you going to do really quickly to get into that Uber and on time your holy grails like your favorite lip gloss, etc.?

SPEAKER_00:

I would just jump into the Uber.

SPEAKER_02:

You don't need anything.

SPEAKER_01:

You don't. You've got that gorgeous glowing skin.

SPEAKER_00:

I can't tell you how often I go out without makeup on. So yeah, I'm not a big makeup girl. I would make sure that maybe I throw in some dry shampoo if I couldn't, you know, or you said I just hopped out of the shower. So my hair's clean. So I would blow dry my hair and I would do my hair because I would at least do that much. But then I wouldn't bother with makeup and I would just run out the door. Nice.

SPEAKER_02:

Love it. And how do you maintain your daily nirvana?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, I don't do a good job. No, I I'm getting better. One thing I do in the winter that is my daily Nirvana is I sit in my hot tub. We live in a very cold, snowy place. So our hot tub outside is beautiful. We live in a rural area so that we in the forest. And that's definitely like a must have for me.

SPEAKER_01:

Nice. That sounds lovely. That's awesome. Yeah. All right, Karen. Thank you so much. It was such a pleasure. And we're very, I'm very grateful to meet you again. You really changed my life. So thanks. It was great to chat today.

SPEAKER_02:

Thanks for listening to Nirvana Sisters. For more information on this episode, check out the show notes, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, find us on Instagram at Nirvana Sisters. If you loved what you just listened to or know someone that would, please share it and tag us. Tune in next week for a fresh new episode of Nirvana Sisters. We'll continue to watch out for all things wellness so you don't have to. Bye.